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tv   The Ed Show  MSNBC  March 18, 2013 5:00pm-6:00pm PDT

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let me finish tonight with this. yesterday of course was st. patrick's day here, and that's a big day in our family, the day mom and dad were married. i can only assume the timing had to do with lent. mom wanted to be able to celebrate on the big day. it's the day we irish americans celebrate and brag about. right this moment i'm about to celebrate it in a special way. my guest is senator mark daily of the republican of ireland. welcome, senator. to what do i owe this honor? >> it's great to be here. i'm over here especially to present you with your certificate of irish heritage, which is official irish government recognition of all those people, the 40 million in the united states, who are proud of their irish heritage. we presented one to president
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obama, coach kelly of notre dame university got one, congressman neil, and your great friend, congressman king got one last year. >> you traced it down to my mom's side. when i was growing up, i had the irish accent. my grandmom on that side had the missus doubtfire accent. >> pretty much anybody in the united states or globally can get a certificate of heritage. >> while mow? >> today is st. patrick's day, and the 40 until in the united states. >> there are 40 million of us. i'll be seeing you tonight at the american-ireland fund. that's a great cause. >> we've actually imported a lot of st. patrick's day over. >> it used to be just a
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religious holiday. >> there used to be three days in ireland where there was drink, christmas, good friday and st. patrick's day. thank you, senator mark daily. that's "hardball" for now. thanks for being with us. happy st. patrick's day. >> good evening, americans. welcome to "the ed show." i'm in for ed schultz. a republican senator comes out for gay marriage two years after his son tells him he's gay. sarah palin and karl rove are at each other's throats. the republican autopsy is in but they're still stuck on slavery. what the devil is going on with the history channel. but tonight we start in steubenville, ohio. this is "the ed show," and as ed
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would say, let's get to work. let's begin with the facts. two members of the steubenville high school football team were found guilty this weekend of raining a 16-year-old girl last year. the judge handed down the verdicts in juvenile court. >> regarding the charges of rain, both are committed to the department of youth services for a minimum period of one year, a maximum period till you're 21. >> the defendants were taken into custody and sent to a juvenile detention center. 16-year-old malik richmond was found delinquent on charges of rain that carry a minimum of one year in detention. 17-year-old trent mays was found delinquent on charges of rain and nudity-oriented material. he was sentenced to a minimum of two years in a juvenile
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detention center. both teens could remain in juvenile detention until they are 21. those are the basic facts of sunday's verdict. but the immediate reaction to the news was driven almost entirely by emotion. >> i cannot imagine, having just watched this on the feed coming in, how emotional that must have been sitting in the courtroom. >> the emotion being discussed was not of the victim or the victim's family. it was a reaction to the defendants breaking down in court. both of them sobbed and offered words of regret minutes before hearing their fates. so in response to the news of a guilty verdict in a rain case, the story was defined by the suffering of the accused? >> it was incredibly emotional, even difficult for an outsider like me to watch what happened as these two young men that had such promising futures, star football players, very good students, literally watched as
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they believed their life fell apart. >> many would argue their lives fell apart the moment they engaged in rain. the coverage of the verdict exploited whatever emotion was conveniently available at the moment. in this instance it was the emotion of two young men who were facing the consequences of their actions. their actions were downplayed and their punishment was jujd, and in so doing, the media gave approval to blame the victim. countless messages including sexual taunts toward the teenage girl, saying she should have been aware of they are surroundings, and blaming her for drunken decisions that ruined innocent lives. two 16-year-old girls have been arrested for making death threats to the victim on twitter. ohio attorney general mike duwine struck a different know when addressing the verdict. he seemed to remember the person who was actually the victim of a crime. >> the prosecutor's most important duty is to seek
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justice. and i believe what we saw today is in fact justice. my heart goes out to the victim and her family. >> duwine added another sentiment. he said every rain is a tragedy. in this instance those covering the story would have done well to remember who perpetrated this tragedy and who was a victim. get your cell phones out. i want to know what you think. tonight's question, did the media lose sight of the real victim in the steubenville case? go to your blog at i'll bring you the results later in the show. i'm joined by professor at the university of pennsylvania and cofounder of "a long walk home." ladies, thank you for joining
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me. why was there such a fierce emotional reaction? >> i think first we need to put this into context of the larger dynamic of rain culture. so this is one of the 3% of cases where rapists are actually convicted and punished for their crime. and so this is the minority of cases, but also i think we all operate under this rain culture that i keep talking about in many of my articles, and that is because we put the blame and the responsibility on women to prevent women. and instead, we should be empathizing with victims and not blaming victims and also supporting victims and being a support system and an advocate so that they themselves are not revictimized by the rest of us when the focus is on what they should have done to prevent it, and instead not on the people that perpetrated the crime.
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>> right. erin, obviously there was a retraumatization of the victim herself as a result of being tried in the public opinion and then demonized more broadly. does the reaction to the story illustrate a problem with the way people are educated about rain and consent? >> absolutely. i think given the age of the offenders, given the age of the victims, it is so clear that the perpetrators were operating with impuni impunity, that the education about consent needs to begin much earlier, that they believed they were above the law, and that when they were documenting it, they didn't realize that what they were doing is creating evidence in a criminal case. they believed that because the coach had their backs, which suggests that this is a long-standing cultural issue, that absolutely nothing would happen to them. so instead of focusing on the victims' behavior, what we should be focusing on is how do we intervene in this culture that tells boys that they don't have to respect women as humans,
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and if they sexually humiliate young girls, absolutely nothing will happen to them. if there's anything we can learn, it is the fact that people need to learn from consent is, what stanley impairment is, intervene in a cultural of masculinity. >> speaking about the toxic culture of masculinity, you of course spent a great deal of time away from the clamor trying to educate young women and young men about these issues. the mother of the victim actually delivered a statement in court to the defendants. she said in part, your decisions that night affected countless lives, including those most dear to you. you were your own accuser through the social media that you chose to publish your criminal conduct on. this does not between who my daughter is. she will persevere, grow and move on. i hope you fear the lord, repent for your actions, and pray hard
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for his forgiveness. is there responsibility for those words to be heard and heard widely? >> yes, i think the other responsibility is for the media to understand what recovering from sexual assault is like. so i think that was the big problem here. not only was there oversympathy for the defendants in this case but there was seeming lack of concern for what rain does to victims of sexual assault. the stats are overwhelming. it's 20% of women who experience sexual assault are going to try to commit suicide. it's the number one reason women drop out of college and high school, and about 60% of papal narcotic incart rated sexual assault. >> and not only were they overly samp sympathizing for the defendant, if they were in the schoolroom we would talk about there's a narrative and there's the narrative on the narrative.
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so the reaction of the media was striking. here's more of the media reaction following the verdict. >> what's the lasting effect, though, on two young men being found guilty in juvenile court of rain, essentially? >> is it unusual for there to be such profound sympathy for the guilty parties, or do you think there's something different about this specific case that kind of captured the imagination of the nation? >> well, certainly we have two football players, and so i think in the united states we lionize athletes to a degree that really is unnecessary. but in reality, the reaction is not any different from rain cases all over the country. many times women internalize this greater narrative of rain culture and they blame themselves while they think that they don't want to press charges because they're going to ruin the perpetrator's life. and that is wrong. that's what we need to change. we need to change the conversation entirely and focus
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on the choices and the actions of the person who committed the crime. because the only reason rain happens is rapists choose to commit rain. that is what we need to be talking about. and instead we always about what the victims could have and should have done to avoid rain, and that's completely wrong. >> erin, how do we push past this identification with the two young men, the boys in this case and focus squarely again on this female victim, because it seems some people are blaming the victim because it seems they either knew details of the case or didn't care or didn't know, like the damning messages sent. >> i'm inspired by the bravery of this young woman who testified in front of her accusers and went against the tide in a town that wore chipped football and football players. in terms of the town now it looks like there's going to be a grand jury convened.
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i think there are a lot of unanswered questions when it comes to the actions of the coach and his failure to report a sex crime and according to the text messages he laughed off. i think there's a lot of questions about the behavior of the boys who were there, some of who have struck deals or community. th . we need those kinds of interventions when it comes to sexual assault. if you see somebody vulnerable to a predator. if you see someone who is about to reach someone's boundaries of consent, in the same way you grab their keys, you have to put a stop to it, and there were so many opportunities in this tragic case that moving on recognizes how it could have been stopped. >> that's a difficult transition, but we've got to focus on how do we develop empathy for those who are at risk in terms of sexual assault into the same degree as we do for somebody driving drunk like miss carmone just said. professor, do you think it makes it more difficult for victims of
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sexual assault to come forward? there's a huge stigma and great deal of empathy for those who commit the crime and not the victim. >> i do think that's the case. but i do think this situation and the guilty verdict here may lead girls and young women to come forward, may lead for more women and girls to come forward. i would hope so. i think the mother's language here about inherit daughter's strength and her perseverance really helps survivors understand that this isn't just one woman's story or one girl's story. it's many of our stories. so yes, i would hope it would make a difference. but each time these cases become publicly spectacles as we know, as in cleveland, texas, or whether it's a high-profile case, it always leaves to survivors sort of sufficieocati their experiences and not coming forward and getting the justice they rightly deserve.
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>> let's hope we can help these people all across america. zerlina, erin, professor, thank you so much for your time tonight. remember to answer tonight's question at the bottom of the screen and share your thoughts on twitter. i want to know what you think. a republican senator now supports gay marriage because of his son? it may be too little too late. ♪ [ male announcer ] staples has always made getting office supplies easy. ♪ another laptop? don't ask. disappear! abracadabra! alakazam! [ male announcer ] and now we're making it easier to get everything for your business. and for my greatest trick! enough! [ male announcer ] because whatever you need, we'll have it or find it, and get it to you fast. staples. that was easy.
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slavery, sarah palin and ted cruz all played a role at cpac this weekend. our big panel weighs in on the republican party's identity crisis. and on the eve of the iraq war, one of the architects is talking about the maeskz. i'll comb over this one later. be sure to join ed on his new time slot saturday and sunday.
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improves the look and feel of hands in 5 uses. love it, or get double your money back. portman became the only sitting republican senator to support gay marriage, he broke new ground for the cause of equal rights. but in the wake of the senator's announcement, we can't help but wonder why it took him so long. senator portman explained that in february of 2011, his son portman and his wife that he's gay. it allowed me to think of this issue from a new perspective and that's of a dodd who loves his
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son a lot and wants him to have the same opportunities his brother and sister would have. >> that's great. first, why did it take two years for senator portman to change his views after this revelation from his son? we do know that last year portman was being vetted as a possible running mate for mitt romney. he said it had no impact in choosing paul ryan over-partman. second, why is it important to have firsthand experience to do the right thing? is it an existential experience necessary to have existential consent? >> i think senator portman made some pretty big inroads last week, but i think it's about being decent, that nobody deserved to have their decency diminished or people don't deserve to be disrespected.
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he stopped short of endorsing his position. here's house speaker john boehner. >> i believe that marriage is the union of one man and one woman. it's what i grew up with, it's what i believe. it's what my church teaches me. and i can't imagine that position would ever change. >> you know the church taught segregation before integration. churches do change. >> hillary clinton showed her support in this video. >> like so many others, my personal views have been shaped over time by people i have known and loved, by my experience representing our nation on the world's stage. my devotion to human rights, and the guiding principles of my faith. >> finally, public support for gay marriage is at an all-time
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high. 58% support marriage equality. only 36% opposed. let's bring in the national spo spokes person. it's a human rights issue as well. so it's not just personal. it's principle. so the accolades for senatorportman's announcement need to be put that a context, don't they? >> they do, but senator portman and mrs. clinton are two examples of people who are examples of what we've always nope at glad, which is when people know us, when they know our stories, when they're part of our lives and hear our stories, they understand our issues and they are on our side. so we applaud senator portman for his statement and for supporting his son. his son has the right to love
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whoever he chooses, and just like his brothers and his sisters. so we welcome that. and as for mrs. clinton, she's always been a great supporter of our community, and we're not shocked by her eloquent statement today. >> let me push you a little bit here, because some people have personal experiences with gay lesbian, transsexual persons and don't like them. wouldn't you rather have principled -- beyond them, wouldn't you appreciate a principled adherence to ideals and beliefs and concepts that give you purchase on support for equality -- marriage quality as opposed to people simply having personal stories which can't be predicted to necessarily be positive? >> yes, i would, but i also know that the best way for people to change their minds is a personal
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experience. that being said, when i hear a statement like john boehner's, i want to say to him, i have seen how moved he has been many times by the reaching for the american dream. and what i ask him is, does that mean that someone who loves another person of the same sex doesn't deserve to reach for that american dream just because of that fact? do i not get to -- do i not get to reach my own goals and my own aspirations and my own dreams just because i am a gay man? do we limit our american dream just to people who he happens to find are acceptable? so i urge him to go out and reach out to our community and to get to know us and see that we have dreams just like he
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does, just like his children, just like his family. and we deserve all the rights and privileges that come with the american citizenship. >> but you see that speaker boehner has already indicated he doesn't imagine changing his views. when do you think most republicans -- >> i have hope for him. >> you should, but when do you think it will become a human rights issue rather than traditional insight and traditional belief? >> well, i think we're on the road to that right now. all we have to do is look at the poll that came out today and see that the momentum really is on our side. we only have to look about ten years ago and see that those polls were almost the opposite of what they are today. so the momentum truly is on our side. and that really is because of the fact that this community has been so brave in telling their own stories and their own experiences because we know
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that's how people change their minds. so i think that people really are seeing it through the lens of human rights. and that happens because they know someone in their family or in their church or in their neighborhood or on their tvs. when they read the newspaper about someone who is lgtb. so i really think that that is happening, and it's happening at warp speed. >> all right. well, we hope they beam them up, scottie. wilson cruz, activist for glad, thank you. t the shouting match breaks out during cpac. the issue? slavery. a febreze experiment.
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bloomberg's not around. shoot, it's just pop with low-cal ice cubes in it. i hope that's okay. >> there's a few things we learned at this year's cpac. first, conservative love for
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sarah palin is sodas is alive and well. on one side you have the gop establishment, the same old members of the republican party like senator john mccain and house speaker john boehner. your typical candidate would be someone like mitt romney. then you have ted cruz and rand paul. it became clear at cpac that grassroots republicans are furious with the establishment's choice in political candidates. 88-year-old activist phyllis schlafly even called for a fight. >> the fight i'm asking you to engage in is between the establishment and the grassroots. the establishment has given us a whole series of losers. bob dole and john mccain and mitt romney.
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>> boy, that's kind of heavy on jim cary loser. but sarah palin slammed karl rove for picking failed republican candidates. >> if these experts who keep losing elections, keep getting rehired and reeking in millions, if they feel that strongly about who gets to run in this party, then they should buck up or stay in the truck. buck up and run. they can head on back to the great lone star state and put their name on some ballad. though for their sake i hope they give themselves and discount on their consulting services. >> buck up, huh? rove was not impressed with palin's remarks and hit back the following day. >> i appreciate her encouragement to run home and run for office. i would say this. i don't think i'm a particular good candidate at sort of a
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balding, fat guy. and second, i wouldn't leave office in mid-term. >> oh, everything you say bounces off to me and sticks to you. it looks like republican infighting will be heathing up going into the mid-terms. but rand paul winning the stronghold could indicate what direction they are headed. >> we know we have robs. >> he says he is the sewer for republicans after cpac. >> we've identified them and we're identifying the solutions to fix them. the big panel takes on the republican medicaldown next. plus obama derangement syndrome rears its ugly head. >> and one of the architects is coming to terms with the mistakes made. you know how to dance...
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gaylord. there's no one reason we lost. our message was weak. our ground game was insufficient. we weren't inclusive. >> he was introducing a 100-page autopsy report. the report calls the growth and opportunity project, predicts dire consequences for the gop if it continues along its current past. quote, the gop today is a tale of two parties. one of them, the gubernatorial wring is growing unsuccessful. the other wing, the frequently wing is increasing marginalizing itself. it will be increasing difficult for republicans to win another presidential election in the near future. yet the report doesn't address the party's policies. instead the focus is on messaging. >> the way we communicate our principles isn't resonating
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widely enough. focus groups described our party as out the of stuff and quote, stuffy old men. >> and while mr. pribus will be investing millions of dollars, it may not be enough. here's what he's up against. that was 30-year-old scott terry of north carolina. he was just one of a room full of attendees at cpac discussion called tump the race card. are you sick and tired of being called a racist when you know you're not one? mr. terry is worried that all this talk of minority outreach is coming at the expense of young, white southern males like himself. mr. terry explained his concerns not event's moderator, an african-american conservative and member of the frederick douglas republicans. mr. terry asked mr. smith if he would support regular allegation as booker t. washington
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advocated. he responded by citing a letter douglas wrote to his former slave master. >> when he escaped from slavery, he writes a letter to his former slave master and says, i forgive you for all the things you did to me. no! >> food and shelter, don't forget those chains. let's turn to ej of the washington post, and benji sarlin, political reporter for talking points memo. he seems to be at odds with the report. this seems to be a step backwards. >> no kidding. when i was watching chairman prebus list all the things they did wrong, he was chairman of the party, so i'm resigning and
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passing this party on to someone else. but that moment you just showed, let's stipulate that guy is not a typical republican. however, the republican party has systematically walked back from its proud role as the party of lincoln, and they've been using almost neo-calhoun about radicalist visions of state's rights, even talk of secession. when they start talking like that, they obviously turn off african-americans, but there are a lot of middle of the road white americans. it's not just about messaging. it's about some fundamental arguments they're making that play into the image that prebus described very well when he talked about all the thing they did wrong. >> no doubt. you were there. you reported on it. so tell us what most surprised
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you. what kind of took your breath away? >> it was kind of ans escalating series of steps. first of all, the talk itself was interesting. it was very similar sort of what you were saying ant pre-bus. the moderator's message is basically you don't have to change anything to influence black voters. then you have this guy say this unbelievably racist fillth about slavery. it's not like the crowd's cheering. i don't want to misrepresent this. but what's strange is they don't throw these guys out. there's no outrage against these guys. i don't think anyone agrees with them, but it's out of line. so this continues. there was a liberal black radio host there who was shocked by this and starting to ask questions. she got shouted down and shaking, boo, you're not welcome. it just kept getting weirder until finally afterwards i went up to the participants because i
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had to know, what do you make of this string display. what did you take away? non-seemed to be offended by these guys saying this stuff about slavery while they were very offended by this woman interrupting them. it was just a completely bizarre set of responses. >> in light of what he said, miss ingraham, isn't that the problem republicans have, because the session is already giving up a lot of ground. aren't you tired of being called a racist when you're not really one. so they've already acknowledged the fact there's a hypersensitivity about racism. this man has to encounter a while male -- what does that say about the racial issues. >> i think the racial issues are bigger. it's really a relational problem. it talks little about building relationships. it's more like let's go to these specific groups and we're going
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to tell them what we're about as opposed to actually having a conversation and hearing what matters to those communities. and i think that this sort of spoke to that, that they're not really interested in tackling some of the more challenging issues that they're having. they're just more interested in appearing as if they're tackling those issues. >> that's a good point. given that, you can jump in, but i'm saying appearance versus the reality. they don't even often make the appearance to be the case that they're trying to reach out to minority people. >> i was watching that and hearing your account, and what i was thinking of is what would jack kemp say if he were alive? jack kemp is someone who was really conservative. he never met a tax cut he didn't like. we used to argue about all his tax cuts. but he had in his heart and soul a deep hatred of ray schism. nobody had any doubts about where he stood. he would have called an audible
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right in that room. all right, you're not going to remember lincoln. that's a long time ago. think back to somebody like jack kemp who combined conservativism with a real sort of concern about justice and equality. >> what does it say, benji, jack kemp, that's not that long ago. we're nostalgic, until even a bush -- what happened that they're so far right that the republican party has no sense of what the mainstream is concerned about? >> this is one of those problems when you don't have a clear leader. when there was president bush, he never got credit from liberals at the time, but he was keeping a lid on this stuff. bush was a believer in a lot of kemp. his passion in addition to conservativism was derived from kemp. without that, first there were no leaders and you just had the
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tea party movement rising up and and then a lot of these leaders are in the conservative house district mostly. so you end up without someone to lead them and say, look, i talked to people outside our group, and these certain things are deal-breakers for them. i know it sounds great when you're talking to each other, but pre-bus did address this a little bit. he talked at the i had logical cul-de-sac that republicans were driving around in where they never stopped to hear what other people were thinking. so it's important to go to these groups and go, why don't you tell me why you aren't voting for me. >> not all conservatives are sold on this report. sarah palin took a swipe at it, so did rush limbaugh, who warned of bamboozle. how difficult is it for the gop to really be transformed? how hard is going to be for them to see a different way? >> i think it's going to be a
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real challenge for them. i think having pre-bus come out and say this is the way we're going to transform the party is one thing, but in reality he's not on the ground. he's not the one sitting in senate or congress or even in the state houses. he's really a figurehead, and really the party itself is going to have to decide whether they want to go the way. prebus or whether they want to go in the three other directions they're going. >> right. thank you all very much. this man is comparing president obama to the devil again? that's next. about who to hire without going to angie's list first. you'll find reviews on home repair to healthcare written by people just like you. with angie's list, i know who to call, and i know the results will be fantastic. angie's list -- reviews you can trust. earning loads of points. we'll leave that there.
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gray, which has boiled over into confrontation on the street and court. on facebook, mike davis says next it'll be shoot them and then frisk them. mary writes, it looks to me to be a police state. hire and train more officers instead of violating people's civil rights, and then get sued. and robert says it's definitely an overreach of the police and needs to be addressed in the courts. go to our facebook page right now and join the conversation and don't forget to like "the ed show" when you're there. have something neatly tucked away in the back of our mind. a secret hope. that thing we've always wanted to do. it's not about having dreams, it's about reaching them. ♪ an ally for real possibilities. aarp. find tools and direction at
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sometimes i reflect, is there something else i could do to make these guys -- i'm not talking about the leaders now, but maybe some of the house republican caucus members, not paint horns on my head. >> welcome back. at this point it's a joke.
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republicans have been trying to portray president obama as other since before he was even elected. it started with the birther movement, but obama derangement syndrome has taken many forms since then. he's a socialist. he's a muslim, an elitist. he's waging a war against religion. but this weekend it took a turn. twitter erupted during the history channel's hugely popular miniseries, the bible, when someone pointed out a resemblance between the actor playing devil and president obama. he tweeted, anyone else think the devil in the bible sunday on the history channel looks exactly like that guy. >> the history channel released a statement calling it unfortunate that anyone made this connection. but that hasn't stopped right
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wing conspiracy sites from turning out. let me get this straight. the devil is a man who fought to reform healthcare to people with preexisting conditions can't be denied coverage. a man who's set to end a decade of war, a man who's fighting to raise minimum wage, oman who puts the middle class interests ahead of the interests of the upper class. sounds like people need to brush up on the good book. tonight in our survey, 95% say yes, 5% say no. decade after the iraq war, dick cheney says he's do it all over again. [ male announcer ] when it comes to the financial obstacles
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siemens. answers. for current and former military members and their families. get advice from the people who share your values. for our free usaa retirement guide, call 877-242-usaa. tomorrow marks ten years since the u.s. invaded iraq in one of president bush's advisers is trying to explain the war he helped sell to the american people. paul wolfowits was the first person to influence president bush to overthrow saddam hussein after 9/11. he says the most consequential failure was to understand the
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tenacity of saddam's regime. this is the same man who has a front row seat under the administration. he originally called for a broadened campaign but now he's distancing himself from the war. he tells the times he was not the architect of the war and the invasion was not his plan. he insists the situation in iraq had spiralled out of control long after he had left the pentagon. he lashed out at critics who accused the bush administration of lying about saddam's terrorist connections and supposed weapons program. wolfowitz defends bush saying a mistake is one thing, a lie is something else. but now we know the basis for the iraq war was based on a lie. members demanded there was a connection between 9/11 and saddam hussein.
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>> we all looked at each other like, what are they talking about? who the hell -- saddam hussein? bin laden hates him. thinks he's a heretic. there's no connection between saddam hussein and al qaeda. >> wolfowitz so-called mistake has cost many lives. tonight a poll shows 53% of americans believe we should not have invaded iraq. tonight instead of taking responsibility, paul wolfowitz is criticizing the war he helped to create. i'm joined now by eugene robinson, pulitzer prize winning columnist for the washington post. gene robinson, you're a wordsmith of the first order. was it a lie or a mistake? >> i have to go to lie.
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simply because, you know, if they say, well, we didn't know, know, know that he didn't have weapons of mass destruction, but they knew that the evidence they were supposedly relying on for wmd was shaky, because they were told that by the guy who went to gather the evidence. he said, this isn't really yellow cake uranium or what you said it was. >> right. >> and because it's clear that from day one of the bush administration, they had iraq on their minds, and they had getting rid fd saddam hussein on their minds. the idea that they didn't know he would be tenacious? look, what this ten-year anniversary says to me is that they lied, they failed, whatever. we failed too, you know, and i'm speaking for journalism, really. for journalists.